Church Online is More Than a Streamed Sermon

 

Bart: Well, Hey Jeff Reed. I want to thank you a ton for agreeing to spend a little bit of time with me today. You and I met a couple of months ago online just through a random LinkedIn connection that I made. I saw that you were working with churches doing some some online church community stuff. I just had a conversation a few days before with a mutual acquaintance of ours about that particular topic. And and so I reached out. We had a conversation. I heard a little bit about what we were doing and then like, literally, within days of us having our conversation where you were explaining to me the digital consulting work that you had been doing, you joined the staff at Stadia as the Director of Digital Church Planting. Now, I don’t have any idea what that is.

Jeff: Neither do I. So we’ll find out together.

Bart: I want to have another conversation with you on another day about digital church planting and what that looks like because I think that’s a totally fascinating topic. But for today I wanted to just take a few minutes to pick your brain about stuff that’s happening in the church world as a result of the Coronavirus and COVID-19 and public gathering bans and just have you share a little bit of insight as to best practices, things that churches can be doing to really maximize the opportunity that they have to connect with people online and digitally. So, before I kind of get into the first question, was there anything else that you wanted to add about your background and the stuff that you’ve been doing.

Jeff: No, That’s great. Stadia Church Planting has been a great organization, two months in. What’s interesting is when all of this, you know, coronavirus hit, like, I took off running. They went right with me and we’re trying to help as many churches as possible right now to understand church online, creating resources and Facebook groups, coaching people through. Even training some of their personnel to get out there because, I mean to your other question, digital church planting, every church in America essentially at this point is a digital only expression of church.

Bart: That’s true.

Jeff: To think that months ago they were like, Jeff there’s no way,  Nobody’s ever gonna do this. They’re not going to buy into it. Literally, it took a global pandemic to get churches to realize that they could create biblical ecclesiology in context and something we’ll talk about I’m sure.  But online. That’s what it looks like. So, thank you coronavirus, in some weird twisted way, for proving my point and now Stadia is in a prime position and we’re helping churches, not only figure out the church online component, but also trying to figure out what it means to the plant a church completely, digitally. So, hey, Bart, thanks for having me on. Looking forward to the conversation.

Bart: All right, Jeff I want to start by just kind of spring boarding off of a blog post that you posted, I guess within the last week or so. In fact I’m gonna I’m going to make sure I link to to your blog with this video because you’ve already posted some really great resources for churches that are trying to figure out this digital online space. But the article, in particular, that got my attention was one that says “how to quickly bring small groups and Sunday school online for digital community.” And the key word that really stuck out to me is “quickly” because this isn’t something, at this point, that churches have weeks or months or years to kind of plan and strategize. It’s something that everybody is trying to pivot to quickly. So, you know my initial observation is that churches quickly figured out how to get their service online, whether they’re streaming it online or they’re pre-recording and posting. And most churches I think that have had expediently jumped on this have figured out some mechanism of doing it. Some are tweaking it as they go. But clearly, the purpose of the church is not just to have a Sunday morning service. There’s a whole lot more to it than that. There’s, you know, the rest of the week and all the other ministry that we’re doing. And so, the question I have for you is, how do churches really cultivate true discipleship and online community in the context of a digital world and how do they do it quickly?

Jeff: That’s awesome. So, out of fairness, I didn’t write that blog so I’m going to give credit to David Limiero, who’s the Systems Director for Stadia Church Planting, for writing that blog. David is a systems guy, I.T. genius, understands more about technology than I do, which I admit that publicly because the guy’s just really that smart. So, I want to thank him if he’s listening. David, thanks for sharing that. But here, the part of, the core of it is this, is that we have an opportunity now to engage with people in a unique way. And as a result of coronavirus, you know I’ve seen churches to be, literally I’ve had church planters tell me, “Hey I’m just going to like not do anything for the next two or three months. We were going to launch anyway and I’m just going to wait for this whole thing to blow over.” You know I’ve had churches talk to me about how their financial situations, man, they’re just going to try to ride it out because they’re really not comfortable. They don’t have anybody around them to understand the technical aspects, or they don’t have volunteer teams, to really do the technology and so they’re really just trying to phone it in. I even had a pastor, that I was trying to walk through the situation and he says to me, I said, you know, just copy and paste the URL from one system to the other and he says “I don’t understand what you’re saying”. And I was like, oh I’m sorry, URL, it’s Uniform Resource Locator. It’s basically the web page address. Just copy that location. And he’s like, no, no I know what a URL is. What do you mean copy and paste? So like there’s this deep level of you know, maybe some people don’t know, like what technology actually is. But there’s an urgency in us now because we have an opportunity to reach people at a, I would suggest, a vulnerable time, at an unsure time. And I think that God used the global pandemic, I think, almost to break down the church in a different way, realize that they weren’t necessarily in control of this stuff and then help us figure out, OK, what are ways that we can engage with people in a new way? And so things like Zoom, things like WhatsApp, things like Facebook groups, Google Meet. All of a sudden, these platforms are basically doorways to connect with people, to engage with people to talk with. But more importantly, to listen to people in a whole new way. And what’s interesting is, really over the process of this, I think the church has an opportunity to reshape how it does ministry. I think the way the church was doing ministry, I don’t think it was really engaging with the culture, but through this season of coronavirus we’re breaking the model of what ministry looks like. And I think how we’re rebuilding it is actually going to be far more effective in the way that people are going to engage, post coronavirus.

Bart: Yeah, it’s very very interesting. I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that what’s going to be fun, in some ways, is getting six months down the road and looking in the rearview mirror and seeing what shifts have taken place in the context of the church as a result of this particular season. Now obviously there’s a whole other level of complexity with this. Churches are struggling. A lot of them are going to struggle financially through this season. They just weren’t prepared with online giving. There’s a whole level of complication with that and getting that ramped up. Most importantly, though, I think is our ability to really keep people connected in authentic community. I don’t think there’s any church in America that’s healthy that would say that a big part of their health is due to the fact that people really feel connected to one another. In fact in some in some social circles, people’s church family and their church connections are the most significant relational connections that they have in their lives. So what are some practical things? You mentioned things like Zoom and WhatsApp and you know there’s Google hangout or Meetup or whatever it’s called and there’s all kinds of platforms. What are some practical things that that you see churches doing or that you’re coaching churches to do to help them maintain that relational engagement, that connection in their communities?

Jeff: Yes. So number one, and I think, I’m hoping, I’m really hoping that we’re past this part of the coronavirus season. The past couple of weeks has everybody’s been stressing out about this service. How do we get the service going? What needs to happen? You know, two weeks ago, call it, you know whatever the March 12th was? Whatever that first Sunday when it was more than just the Pacific Northwest that was on coronavirus, but everybody else across America is really dealing with that. I called it like Church Online Appreciation Sunday because tens of thousands of churches were broadcasting their service for the first time and the people were rejoicing and attendance was skyrocketing online and there was like this general, like, calm where, hey, it’s good we can survive this because we’re doing it all online. The next week, you know, it’s actually probably, you know, looking at the calendar, just bad with dates, probably somewhere around March 20th was that Sunday. That was the day that the church broke the internet because there was so much weight on systems. Facebook was having major issues. LifeChurch develops a free platform called ChurchOnline platform that tens of thousands of churches used to broadcast for free. Like, Life Church does it as a gift. And in the weight of all those users, coupled with some software issues that they were rolling out with the new platform, that platform ended up breaking. And tens of thousands of churches did not have an online experience and they’d had all their eggs in that basket. And so for a stretch here, there’s been a lot of stress around kind of creating that Sunday morning experience. You know, at some point, and I suggest sooner than later, we need to let all that go because, as you know, and hopefully your listeners, church is more than the one hour on Sunday whether it’s an online experience. There’s opportunities at connecting community, and the small groups, there’s discipleship, there’s being on mission. You know they’re serving. And so the challenge that I really throw to people today, that I throw to churches today is, let’s not just stop with the services. And even seeing groups, and that’s ramping up. That’s awesome. But that’s, let’s do more than that. And really, the first thing to really look at is, let’s call this the start of the conversation. The start of the conversation is this. What do you do in the physical space? How do you define making a disciple? What’s you’re discipleship process. What’s your pathway? Are you a baseball diamond, you know, a la Rick Warren? Do you have a triangle via somebody else? Are you more of a direction instead of pathway guy, a la Daniel Im? There’s all sorts of different processes. Whatever your strategy is, figure out how to do it online. Start to build some of that stuff in. You know, easy way it’s like orientation. Most churches have some sort of a new member class, membership orientation, start, I’m new here, kind of thing. Start with that and then just start to build the building blocks as you go beyond that online.

Bart: So, if I was going to do that as a pastor, if I was gonna have my orientation class online what are some tools that I can use to do that and to make that simple?

Jeff: Awesome. Yeah so simple stuff there. A Zoom hangout or a Zoom meeting. A Zoom meeting room works for 10 to 15 people, easily, to have a face to face conversation. You can see, I think, up to 50 webcams at the same time. And once you get to like 50, 100, you know I’ve done some of these things with like 3-400 people, it gets kind of hard because now 400 people are talking to you at the same time or can and that’s just hard to manage. I’m not kidding. Like it gets kind of crazy. Zoom webinars also exist as well. It’s a different account. It’s a different price level to buy into. But Zoom itself is probably the big winner in the church world today. You can do a 40 minute message, for free, compared to the other platforms. In my opinion, it’s probably the more stable option. Beyond 40 minutes, I think you’re paying 10-15, maybe 15 dollars a month. And then there’s more features that that you charge more for. My mom is 73 years old. She teaches two online small groups. She’s taught them for I think three years, four years at this point. She uses Zoom, Sunday night, Monday night. She connects with people. Mom, I’m sorry. I always told her I would never out her age on air, man, crap. I really feel bad now.  But she’s got, you know, some older ladies that are on this podcast, all the way down to like, college kids and and recent graduates that are in her small group and so she’s got this really rich discipleship level and she’s just like logging on Zoom and having conversations.

Bart: Well, it’s interesting that you bring that up because one of the points in the article, “How to Quickly Bring Small Groups and Sunday School Online” is that your colleague wrote is that, whatever you’re doing, it has to be grandma-proof or it has to be able to pass the grandma test. What’s going to pass the grandma test? What are some of the things that you perceive to be obstacles to grandma or luddites not being able to get online and make it work.

Jeff: Yeah, I love that luddite reference. So, like the church, I attend a church here in Miami, Christ Journey. And when I talk, they actually have a “digital pastor” whose job is literally to pastor, utilizing some of these online technology tools. And so he’s already been thinking aggressively about this, even before the global pandemic hit. And just one of the ideas, just to throw it out there. I took him to the website, I was like look at the website. He’s like, “yeah” and I said how much of this information on this website is relevant today? He said absolutely none of it. And I was like, OK, so let’s build a quick website, maybe it’s even just one or two pages. What information is easily accessible and relevant to today? And that’s really the the grandma test. It’s so funny. I love that David said “the grandma test”. When I read that, I was like, ’cause I can totally relate to it. For me, it was my mom. My mom’s a grandma. I’ve got kids. But, it’s like I’ve got to make this so that my mom can understand it. My mom is more technologically advanced than most. She does have her moments. She sometimes she still struggles to print things. For some reason like, that’s the yips in her life that she can’t get past printing because the printer disconnects randomly or stuff. But, so you have to set this stuff up so that it’s easy and clear for the normal person to understand. So things like, utilizing tools and systems that’s basic. Tools that are designed for exactly what you want to do instead of something that may be a little more complicated. More of like a minimalist type of a design. Just for an example, like this the thing that I encourage churches with. You may be streaming a church service on Facebook and that may be the number one platform that you want everybody to go to because that’s the often the easiest platform to get to.  My mom isn’t going to go to your Facebook channel to look up your church service. My mom’s gonna go to your website and if it’s not within, on the home page, clearly presented, to go to Facebook, my mom is going to click through three things, get tired. She’s gonna text me that it’s not working and then she’s gonna go do something else. I know, because like I’ve experienced that, in real time. And so, its, you know, never underestimate the simplicity of the people who are using your stuff. Oftentimes, we overcomplicate things. In this season, which is why I’m telling the pastor I work with at Christ journey. Let’s just create a two-page website, three-page, don’t throw everything else away.  Like, bury it down, archive it. We’ll come back to it when the building’s open. But, especially as this goes on, we need to highlight clearly and easily the stuff that we are doing instead of burying it down in the garbage with some of the other stuff that nobody really cares about today because it’s irrelevant today.

Bart: That’s a really interesting point. You know, I work a lot with churches that are in sort of revitalization or refresh stage of their vision and their mission and their ministry practices and one of the things that we constantly remind these church leaders, in these churches of, is that there are parts of their culture and parts of their practice that are obstacles to people who don’t know their church and don’t know their culture to actually onboarding. You know, there are things about who we are and what we do that actually prevent people from finding us or wanting to join us. And I think, the same thing is true digitally, right?  If we’re trying to make what we’re doing accessible to people, whether it’s the service or some sort of Zoom-based small group Sunday school experience or you know whatever, a Facebook group, or whatever it is that you’re choosing to use, we have to make sure that we remove as many barriers as possible so that people can access it and access it quickly and easily. I had a conversation with Boyd Pelley, who’s co-founder of Churchteams and we were talking about some of the the hurdles with online giving platforms. You know, there are some online giving platforms that require you to set up an account. You can’t just take out your phone and put a dollar amount in your credit card number and go. There’s multiple steps. And so we’re in a season, in the life of a church, where we’ve got to, in order to make sure that we’re ministering to as many people as possible and we’re making things accessible to people as possible, we’ve got to make sure that we’re running it through that “Grandma test”. I think that’s a really good way of shaping that. What are some creative things that you see churches doing to bring more engagement with the people in their church and the congregation as a whole, outside of that Sunday morning service blast?

Jeff: I love the fact that you used the word engagement. Engagement is often used so much we don’t really understand what it means. The heart of engagement isn’t talking, it’s actually listening. Billy Graham, back in the 90s, broadcasted one message. It bounced off 37 satellites, was translated by umpteen different translators. One single message, taught on global missions, was actually heard by a billion people. And so, that one way communication of Sunday morning, like, we’ve been doing that for a couple of decades now. Billy Graham did and I love Billy Graham. It’s not a knock on Billy, but that’s old news. And so the opportunity with the Internet is to engage and specifically, I interpret the word engagement to be listening. I don’t engage by talking. I engage by listening. The opportunity to give other people a voice to speak into and I’m engaging them by listening, in processing and talking back. Philosophically, like today, 2020, online, church online as we’re figuring things out. This is a new philosophy because the church is used to making blanket statements and talking about sermon series and this is what we’re doing. We as a church, we have an opportunity, you know, not to make statements, but to listen. It’s better to ask a question than to make a statement. And so, by asking, and even, not even talking about just how social media culture is more of allowing others to talk. 2020 coronavirus, I don’t know that anybody really understands what is psychologically and emotionally happening with people that we’re trying to reach. Like, I don’t even think psychologists and therapists truly understand this yet and we’re only two weeks in. When it gets two, three, four months should it go that long, Lord willing, hopefully not. Like where we will be as a church, I don’t know that any of us know how to do that directly. I mean Ed Stetzer’s done a live Facebook thing on this, recently, talking about, even within the next week, someone we know will have COVID, coronavirus. Within a month, someone we know, will likely have died as a result of the coronavirus disease. And so, us asking questions, us listening, us trying to figure out how to do ministry is clear. Now, from a practical standpoint, that could be as easy as doing a Facebook poll in a group, asking more questions. Don’t talk about what you’re doing, ask what people are feeling and as a result of that you’re engaging in a conversation either as an individual pastor or even as your church as a brand. You’re starting to open yourself up to have some of those conversations and it’s through those conversations that you can route towards what you want to do. You can do ministry in a new way. Not because you’re pushing this blanket idea out to the entire campus, I’m picking on the sermon series, but not like a sermon series as much as this is the opportunity for you to do ministry at an individual level. We’re in a season where there’s a lot of technology, especially in church online. Technology is not the end goal. Church online should never be about the technology. The technology is the means to the end. It’s that high touch that really works alongside the high tech. So the more that we are working with technology, in this season of coronavirus, the more that we have an opportunity not to engage in mass, like Billy Graham, but to engage at an individual one-on-one level. That’s the strength of the Internet. Not the fact that I can talk to a billion people with a message, but the fact that I can interact individually with a single person. That’s the win of church in Coronavirus season and definitely of church online.

Bart: Yeah, you hit on a couple of things there that are kind of, I guess, they’re soapboxes for me. One of them is the way that churches tend to use social media. Churches tend to use social media as a one-way means of communication. I’m using my Facebook feed or my Instagram as a way of telling you what’s happening. It’s all information, information, information and I think now, more than ever, we’re in a place where we need to be able to figure out how to create dialogue in social media that is going to be meaningful and helpful for the people that are spending inordinate amounts of time on social media these days. I’m sure that, you know, I know I spend too much time on social media as it is but a lot of it is related to my work. It’s not just spending time checking out what all my friends are doing and what their kids are doing. A lot of it is church and ministry and communications related. But, even now during this particular season, I’m spending more time on Facebook or Instagram than I ordinarily would. And I’m sure that a lot of other people are doing the same thing. So, I think that, you know, one of the things we’re missing from our current experience right now is, we’re missing the ability to gather on Sunday mornings. If you’re in an older church, maybe you have a fellowship hall, and people gather in the fellowship hall before or after the service for coffee and donuts or if you have, you know, a more modern church building maybe you have a lobby or an atrium or a coffee shop where people gather before and after the services and we don’t have those right now. So we’ve got to figure out creative ways, whether it’s through social media, through Zoom, through Skype, through Facetime or whatever the case may be, to create those types of engagements for people to keep them connected to one another and to keep keep them connected to the ministry of the church. So I appreciate you kind of hit hitting on that because that is a bit of a, I don’t know, one of those things that I like to I like to pontificate about quite often. Let me ask you a couple more questions and then we’ll wrap up. Are there any sort of things that you would counsel, maybe a smaller church on, rather than a larger church. Like one of the things that’s easy. It’s easy to look at big churches around you. If you’re a smaller church and there’s big churches around you, megachurches that have already been doing church online, they already had a stream service, they’re already doing things. It’s really hard not to look at them and say well how can we replicate that? How can we do what they’re doing? What are some some things that you would caution a smaller church, maybe from doing, as they’re looking at some of the larger churches or what are the some of the lessons that you think that smaller churches could learn from and looking at larger churches?

Jeff: Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ve probably got a couple. First off, don’t assume the bigger churches are doing it right. Like I just said, the ability for you to listen and to respond to individuals through technology, to have high touch. Small church, it’s going to be much easier for you to do this. Don’t look at an overproduced broadcast of a live service and say, “I can’t even compete with this, I’m not going to try”. The goal of church online, in general, should not be an overproduced service that doesn’t feed the anything else, that one-way communication instead of a two-way engagement. So first off church, small church, you can have huge wins on this just by doing engagement and listening and talking using social media tools, Facebook, Messenger, WhatsApp, Instagram. Even basic stuff with YouTube and creating videos. Like sometimes, I think like, we look at the at the overproduced stuff that’s happening. You know what I saw, like on Jimmy Fallon, I watched him with a video on his iPhone, like doing a selfie with himself, with his kid crawling all over him and there’s a dog barking in the background. Like this whole, we have quality concerns. We’ve got a race to a standard. All that went out the window. It is far more effective. Somebody told me this. Produce, don’t perfect. Like that’s the mindset that I would suggest for you small church out there. Don’t worry about being perfect. Don’t worry about perfection. Don’t hold yourself to a standard. Make sure that you are audibly heard and honestly, an Apple, an iPhone with a pair of AirPods solves the problem because there is a mike built in and it’s great, if not, any headphone that’s got a mike on it. At the end of the day, there’s probably tools that you have, or your kid has, or one of your volunteers have, that can just as easily help you engage in this online environment. Don’t worry about quality. Get out there. Create some content and with it, use it as the front door to meet people in a new way. And listen and engage them because, as a small church, it’s easier for you to turn on a dime than it is for the bigger church organizations. It’s easier for you to have some of these individual small level conversations than a big organization will. And I think that there is an opportunity for you to do ministry in a far different way and have a larger impact. Maybe. Yeah. Guess what? The bigger services have more people watching their services. That’s awesome. How much are they engaging with people? How many names do they know, of the people who are watching? How are they able to get them funneled into ministry? Smaller churches seem to be, that those aggressive in those areas. Honestly, in my opinion, percentage wise, they are far more effective when it comes to doing ministry because they’re able to be relational in ways that bigger churches often struggle to.

Bart: Jeff, that’s a lot of great stuff and I could go on there. I have other questions that I was hoping to ask but I think for the sake of time, we’ll kind of land on that. I think that was some really, really good advice and really good counsel. As we wrap things up here, is there any one piece of advice that you would give to a new church? That was really good advice that you just gave but I’m going to ask you this last question. One piece of advice that you would give to churches, to any church, large or small that’s really maybe swimming in these unfamiliar waters for the first time of church online and trying to connect with people digitally.

Jeff: Yeah. Version one is better than version none. Gary Vaynerchuk says that a lot. And if you listen to Gary, that’s awesome, if you don’t listen to Gary, don’t listen to Gary. He cusses a lot.

Bart: Although he does, there is a “curse-free” Gary V podcast. I have discovered that.

Jeff: Oh is there really?

Bart: I think so, yeah. I’ve downloaded some episodes. I haven’t listened to them yet but you are right. Gary Vaynerchuk.

Jeff: He does cuss alot.  You gotta be OK with that, and some sometimes it’s like, ahh maybe a little too much there bro. But he’s got his rhythm. By the way, everybody’s like, who’s Gary V? It is now like skyrocketing on Google because of this.

Bart: You’re welcome Gary, send the checks to…

Jeff: Exactly. But here’s the deal. Roll with what you have and learn from it. In this season of coronavirus, nobody, and to me, this is what makes this season, I hate the word, use the word “so exciting”, to me but it’s new. There is no one that actually knows how to do this well. And so, in this season of experimenting, of changing, of trying different things, you might actually learn something that will help you. Not just in the short term, in this coronavirus season, but long term. And realize this, which is what when churches are like, hey I’m just gonna phone out for a couple months. I’m gonna check out. I’ll come back in when things get back to normal. There is no normal. The normal that we knew will not, culturally, I’m not even talking church. The culture that we knew in January, Bart, when you and I had that conversation, the culture that we were in, in January, when we had that conversation, we will never know that again. Coming out of this season, there are already things that are shifting. There’s already technology that’s been released and technology will continue to release at a quicker level. Our people already don’t trust buildings more than they did before. Before they just weren’t interested. Now they’re not going to trust it for a safety and security reason. So a lot of the things that that we’ve been talking about and how why we need to embrace this online technology. It’s just going to be even more important coming out of this because culture is gonna be moving away from locations and even more into homes. Look at what’s it’s gonna do the restaurant business. We’re going to be seeing more and more takeout. Smaller locations that are more affordable especially if the economy turns in a direction, it looks like it will. It’s not going to be location based and the ability for you to get out there and empower individuals with the message is going to be a phenomenal opportunity for you, church, church leader, church pastor. Here’s the fact. This goes back to 2016. Just imagine where we were 2016, compared to today and I have voiced that.  63 percent of people in 2016 weren’t interested in a church building for spiritual development. Many, in the same ways on, if I was transparent, I’m not interested in going to a mosque like I already know what I think I know spiritually and I’m not interested in going to a mosque for future development. I am interested, and Lifeway would tell us, in 2016 Seventy nine percent, seventy-nine percent of people in 2016 were interested in having a conversation about faith with their friends but only if they could see that faith was important to their friends. Church online, the purpose really, is not a one-way communication. It’s a two-way communication. We’re empowering people with discipleship, with disciple making, the ability to evangelize, to share their faith. And through that, and then empowering them on personal mission. I suspect that’s actually where the church is gonna be more effective and influential not through a building, as much as through individuals that understand their personal mission of who God called them to be and what the gospel is and their ability to then share that with others who can then share that with others. So, consider some of that in the coming weeks and months as we’re in this coronavirus season and realize that the biggest question we have today is not how to get our services broadcast but really. And I’m doing podcasts on this like even today recording and trying to figure this out. How do we get people on mission in coronavirus season? What is “on mission” even mean today, so.

Bart: Great thought. great thought Jeff, thank you again for taking the time with me today. I appreciate it. If people who are watching this or listening want to get in touch with you, what’s the best way to do that?

Jeff: Yes. So I’m on the website thechurch.digital. TheChurchDigital social media is that. We do create podcasts, blogs, a ton of content at this season. Traffic on my website’s been up 1000 percent. A lot of people are just hungry and trying to figure out how to do this stuff. And so I’m in several Facebook groups but probably the best Facebook group I’m in right now is through Stadia where we’re working with church online things and so if you go the church dot digital slash F B that will, for Facebook FB, that’ll redirect you. Thechurch.digital/FB, that’s a Facebook group where I’m in. I’ve got, maybe five, six hundred pastors at the time of this recording. In there, talking about church online, once again, engaging listening, asking questions, helping the group figure out, kind of, where we are. So, nobody knows the answers to this stuff. So, if you’re not utilizing some of these Facebook groups to ask questions and engage, you really should. And if you think you got it figured out, feel free to like, contribute. But either way, like there’s opportunities to be the Paul, where you’re teaching and the Timothy where you’re observing. Either way, you know, let’s figure out ways to do that.

Bart: That’s awesome. I’ll make sure that I post all of the connection link with the video. Again, Jeff, thanks so much. We’re gonna set up another time to talk some time on what digital church planting really means. We’ll wait until all the dust settles of COVID-19 and we have a little more view of what the landscape is going to look like. But again I appreciate you taking the time with me today.

Jeff: Awesome. Thanks Bart.